In Episode 3 of Let's Talk Leadership, Brit and Amelia reflect on leaders from the past and present and what makes them important.

About Amelia:

Amelia is studying History, International Relations and Spanish at the University of Exeter. She is English but was born in Italy, living there for 5 years. After moving to an international school, and being taught by an inspiring teacher, she fell in love with history and politics.

Transcript:

Brit van Ooijen (00:00):

Hello, today's conversation is with Amelia Ledgard-Hoile. Hi, Amelia, welcome to Let's Talk Leadership.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (00:11):

Hello.

Brit van Ooijen (00:12):

Hi. Hi. Now, Amelia, when you're not in lockdown, you are at the University of Exeter, studying history, international relations and Spanish. You are English, but you were born in Italy where you spent five years before your family moved to the UK. So, as a toddler, I assume you spoke English at home and Italian at nursery school. Is that right?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (00:39):

Yes.

Brit van Ooijen (00:39):

Yes. So, that made me wonder whether that was maybe the start of your interest in international relations.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (00:48):

Possibly. That could be exactly where it came from. Always felt like I had a rather international aspect, especially just had an attachment to Italy. And even though I lived back in the UK, we spent pretty much every possible moment in Italy, back at home with our friends and, yeah, pretty much our family out there. So, that's probably where it all began in a certain way.

Brit van Ooijen (01:12):

Yeah. So, it was really like a cross-border connection that you had from a very early age. But I mean, jokes aside, what made you decide to go into this field of study?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (01:26):

Well, there are a number of different things, but I'd say the main reason that I went into this is, I initially went to a different school and history was one of my least favorite subjects and I had no real interest in politics. Then I moved to an international school and I got the most amazing teacher for history and international relations, actually the same teacher. He was just so inspiring and it just completely sparked my interest. And initially, going into this school, I didn't know whether I wanted to do biology or whether I wanted to go down the root of international relations or history. I chose history in the end and I'm so happy that I did.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (02:03):

And along with that, I was in a class at this international school with people from all different backgrounds. So for example, my politics class, it was me, a Portuguese girl, an Italian girl and a Russian girl. And it really gave all these different viewpoints and perspectives on history and current affairs that really showed that, actually, it was so much what you thought was due to upbringing and these different perspectives were very interesting. I guess that made me want to explore it further.

Brit van Ooijen (02:31):

Yeah, lovely. Yeah. So it immediately gave you a sense of how important it is to speak with people across borders and also, as you say, to compare viewpoints, right?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (02:43):

Absolutely, yeah. It just shows that there's such a broad aspect to history and there's not one way of looking at it or there's not one way of looking at politics. And in fact, it very much depends on how you're brought up and how you're taught by your parents and the society you're brought up in. And that, for me, was very interesting. It's nothing I'd ever really considered before. I think when I realized what a diverse, interesting subject it was, I really wanted to explore it further and that's why I'm studying it at university.

Brit van Ooijen (03:10):

Yeah, lovely. So, is there any particular period in history or region in the world that you have a special interest in?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (03:19):

I would certainly say that my most favorite part of history is 20th century history, modern history, just because I think it interlinks so perfectly into the modern day. You really can't understand modern politics and the way the modern world is structured, essentially, without understanding the events leading up to the World Wars, and the creation of the United Nations, and initially the League of Nations, and all these institutions that we just take for granted today and we accept a part of how the world is framed today. I think that that's why they link together so perfectly. And yeah, I think that modern history, well, for me, I find it the most interesting with my interest in politics as well.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (04:01):

And a region is definitely Europe, I think just possibly because I've studied it the most. But also, a region that I'd love to know more about is the Middle East and how Europe has really affected the structure of the Middle East and how decisions made by European prime ministers and leaders, et cetera, has really structured the Middle East and how we see the Middle East today. So, if I had to choose an area to further study, it would definitely be the Middle East.

Brit van Ooijen (04:32):

Yes, of course, there are very close links between Europe and the Middle East all throughout history, which are fabulous to look into and to compare. So, that must be an absolutely fascinating region for you. Yeah. And what we often hear, when we hear people speak about politics and those national relations and the past, is that the past tends to repeat itself, history repeats itself. You hear that in English, there's a French expression, there's probably many other languages as well. We are indeed seeing that now again with the pandemic, are we not? Which is, because it's hardly the first and sadly probably not the last time that we have to deal with this kind of a crisis. And so, I was wondering what your view is when people say history repeats itself. If that's the case, and it is, why do you think we are so reluctant to learn from those patterns and to draw the lessons and to maybe do it a bit better next time around?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (05:38):

Well, I'd say that the first thing is that it's often difficult to learn from history with new generations, just mainly because the victors tend to write history. We only remember the positive parts and we tend to reflect on the victories rather than, well, the disappointments and the losses in history. Another thing is I think that people get fairly complacent and think that these events are very much in the past. They become very disassociated with them and very disattached from them and think that these events, "Oh, they happened to past generations, but they're not going to happen to us. They're not going to happen again." And I think from this sort of complacency, people just don't think that it's possible for these events to happen again. And therefore, these mistakes are repeated again and again, because people don't tend to learn from them.

Brit van Ooijen (06:30):

Complacency. I'd like to pick you up on that word because I think you're absolutely right there. There's a certain, almost, well, call it complacence or almost maybe some arrogance in there that we think that we have evolved and we've got all these technical, wonderful new developments and, yeah, we'll be fine. We are smarter than the people before us ever were. And that makes us maybe a little bit arrogant and, indeed, a little bit complacent as well. Does that irritate you?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (07:04):

I find it incredibly frustrating because I think that, I mean, especially looking at issues today, we've got another pandemic going on around us and this is something that's happened throughout history, but we've always just sort of thought that it would never affect us in life. And I think also, it's very similar to the wars. They happened, well, for my generation, my grandparents were children in the war, so they really had no sort of attachment to it. And I guess that they're the last generation that really have any memory of it. So once that generation has gone, we have no association with the wars and they seem like a distant memory and something that we have no relation to.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (07:43):

I think that's quite dangerous in a sense because if people are complacent and continue to be complacent about these sort of things, that's exactly when they start to happen again. I mean, we're seeing the rise of nationalism again, as we did around World War I and World War II and, well, every war you can possibly see, really, there's always a rise of nationalism and I think that's very dangerous. But I'm hoping with my generation, it's quite impossible to avoid politics and to not really be aware of events around us at the moment, so I'm hoping that with that, this sense of complacency will diminish.

Brit van Ooijen (08:18):

Yeah, I hope so too. I hope so very much with you. And you're right, it seems to me that young people are politically much more aware now than ever before. And of course, I guess you have to be because you told me last time we chatted that you have inherited a little bit of a mess from us.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (08:37):

Yes, [crosstalk 00:08:37].

Brit van Ooijen (08:38):

No, but that was very, very true. I think it's a fair accusation because even, what, people from my generation and older, even though we didn't actively choose to harm the planet, we did, I guess, drift along with the mindset of almost unlimited consumption, not stopping to think what it really all meant. And yeah, I guess it's Elie Wiesel, the Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner, who said once that, "The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference." And that comes back to your complacency. And so, I think, yeah, to some extent we have been indifferent and as a result of that, you, your friends, my own children, face a very different future. So, I can imagine that that must make you feel sort of much more on edge than we were when we had your age.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (09:39):

Yeah. We definitely have a sense of responsibility to try and sort this out. And I think from a young age, it was always said that our generation would be the one to have to turn this around because it's getting to the point, especially, as you mentioned, with climate change, that changes really do you have to start being put in place. So, we're getting to the point where the clock is ticking and we really do need to start making a difference. Otherwise, well, there's not going to be many more generations.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (10:06):

So certainly with that, it feels like much more of a burden, but in a way, I think that's also a positive thing. I think that positive changes will come out of it because we have no other choice. My generation has become so much more politically aware and so much more politically engaged for this reason and I think that that can definitely be taken as a positive aspect.

Brit van Ooijen (10:26):

Yes, I think so too. I think there is a much larger body of young people now who are aware and who can make, hopefully, real change happen. I mean, starting with, not starting, actually, there were others before her, but somebody like Greta Thunberg. A figure like her just walking out of school, sit down for a strike for the climate at age, what? 15, I think she was at the time. In my time that would have been unimaginable. You didn't just walk out of school to sit down and have a strike. Your parents would have probably kicked you back in. Maybe a little bit of an exaggeration. But I think there is a much wider awareness now and hopefully with that and with, hopefully, better education as well, because I think you guys have a lot more on your plate than we used to.

Brit van Ooijen (11:19):

When I look at the kind of exams that my children have, I think, "Oh my goodness, I'm not sure I ever knew that much or had to know so much." So, with all of that comes a responsibility, but hopefully also an opportunity to do something else, right? Because we know from history, and you alluded to it, that in times of crisis, tensions tend to be exposed that were already existing, but they just become more evident, more visible, and they sometimes bring out the worst, but also the best in people. And so, we know now that the corona crisis can not be solved by countries for themselves alone, because simply, it doesn't respect any borders, just like the climate doesn't. So, it will require a lot of collaboration. Has this pandemic, in a way, made you more or less optimistic and positive about the likelihood that people will truly collaborate internationally and it won't stay at the level of a young girl having to sit down and strike?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (12:23):

In a sense, I'd say it's made me more optimistic. For example, when you look at Europe, they've come together and their ventilator collaboration and things like that. They've definitely come together to try and work through this pandemic. However, there are some things that make me a bit more pessimistic. For example, you look at the USA and China, they have actually gone at this alone and especially the United States, they've decided to try and tackle this pandemic on their own and have become very independent and quite isolated. And it's definitely caused tensions between them and China a lot more. So I think that in some senses, the smaller countries have had to come together and it's shown hope for collaboration, but we're not quite there yet. And the big powers are definitely still not trying to collaborate as much as maybe they should.

Brit van Ooijen (13:16):

Yeah. True. I agree. Talking about big powers and talking about leadership, I know which international high profile leader you don't admire very much because when he came to visit the UK a few years ago, you took a fairly active part in protesting against him. But can I ask you, who do you look up to? Who do you see as making a real difference in the field of leadership? Maybe not even a real leader, but somebody you look up to for their values and what they stand for?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (13:48):

Well, there are a few people I idolize and I'd say that the two main ones that I'd like to point out are probably Emma Watson and a lady called Dane Helena Kennedy. And firstly, Emma Watson, even though we grew up with her on TV as an actress and a figure in Harry Porter, she's now sort of a voice, I guess, for my generation. Now she's speaking in the UN advocating for women's rights and is really just a wonderful figure for my generation and showing how younger people actually can have a very big impact rather than just older political figures and older leaders.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (14:30):

The other one is Dame Helena Kennedy who I saw speak when I was at my old school and probably about 15. She is a human rights lawyer and a barrister, and she's written a number of books that I really love. She is a huge key figure in international relations and human rights. And just seeing her speak really showed that, actually, that's the sort of thing I want to get into and I want to help people. She just is an incredibly powerful woman for a generation where women often couldn't get to these sort of roles and they were frowned upon for getting to high positions like this.

Brit van Ooijen (15:11):

Yeah. She seems quite fearless.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (15:14):

Very much so, yeah. She's [inaudible 00:15:16] proof of this.

Brit van Ooijen (15:17):

Yes. But that's interesting because, okay, she seems a bit daunting. I've seen a few clips with her and I admire her as well. And she says things like, "The law is male, and we have these vestiges of justice that are more geared towards supporting males than females." What do you think of that?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (15:42):

I'd say that that's certainly the case in a lot of countries today, not necessarily the UK as much. I'd say that in the West, we're moving towards possibly more modern, because there's a lot of pressure in society and democracy for that to be the case. But when she refers to that I think she's also trying to protect women in more vulnerable countries that don't necessarily have protection of human rights and any sort of way to protect them in, well, the democratic system and the legislative and judicial system. I think that's definitely something that needs to be worked on and moved towards because there's certainly not equality yet.

Brit van Ooijen (16:23):

No, no, I agree. I'm afraid I, again, have to agree with you. Yeah, yeah. So, we talked about Emma Watson, or you did, Dame Helena Kennedy, all public figures right now. I think Emma is an example of somebody, a young person, who is not as such in a leadership role, but she can serve as an example because of her celebrity. I guess she can use her celebrity in a right way to reach out and talk about what she sees as injustice. So, that is a great example of sort of leadership without any formal authority. But she certainly has authority because she has an impact, right?

Brit van Ooijen (17:04):

Now coming back to history again, let's say that you could host a dinner party with a few people from the past who are no longer with us. Who would you like to invite on your table?

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (17:20):

An absolutely brilliant question. I think that if I had to ask, well, there are two people that stand out for me in history that I'd have to ask. And it's interesting because they're quite interlinked, but Otto von Bismarck is the first person I'd ask. Just with his role in keeping Europe stable before the outbreak of the First World War. He played a huge part in trying to relax relations and keep Europe, well, from breaking out into a war for two decades. Then as soon as he stepped down, well, World War I pretty much broke out. And I'd say that the fall of Bismarck is one of the reasons for the beginning of the war.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (18:04):

And another person who's linked to him is Kaiser Wilhelm II. He was the Kaiser of Germany that actually forced Bismarck to step down. He was quite, well, an imposing character, quite neurotic with his decisions. And, well, his political instability was a reason for the outbreak of the war as well. I think that having a dinner with these two characters and seeing them interact together would be incredibly interesting, certainly heated, to say the least.

Brit van Ooijen (18:39):

Probably. Yeah, that would be very interesting. And I'm not sure they would be pescatarian, as I know you are. But hey, I'm sure they'd be able to adapt. Now, wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a dinner party with those two and then add on Emma Watson and Dame Helena, and then really have a conversation about what does it mean to make decisions and to bring people together? I think that would be fascinating.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (19:04):

Indeed, that certainly would be an interesting party.

Brit van Ooijen (19:09):

Good. Well, Amelia, it has been a real, real pleasure to chat with you today and I hope we can do that again soon. So, thanks a million and have a lovely sunny bank holiday weekend.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (19:23):

Thank you very much. It was lovely to speak to you too.

Brit van Ooijen (19:26):

And you. Take care. Bye.

Amelia Ledgard-Hoile (19:28):

Bye-bye.