In episode 1 of Let's Talk Leadership, Matthew & Marcos discuss resilience in the context of leadership.

About Marcos:

Executive Coach Marcos has more than 25 years of experience working with senior executives and their teams. His work focuses on developing relational leadership through personal renewal to implement successful strategic initiatives and achieve meaningful challenges. Marcos works both with individuals applying transformational coaching as well as with teams applying organisation & relationship systems coaching principles. As a certified professional facilitator, he does extensive team coaching and facilitation for leading teams, designing and delivering leadership capacity, and relational leadership workshops for senior executives and high potential executives.

Transcript:

Matthew Hunter (00:01):

Hello and welcome to, let's talk leadership. I'm joined today by Marcus Cajina from Madrid. And let me just tell you a little bit about Marcus before we start the conversation.

He's an incredibly experienced leadership professional. He's worked in four different continents with hundreds of different executives and CEOs. He coaches, he facilitates give researchers anti consults. He's appeared on TV too in Spain and he's also appeared on the Canal National de Chile in Chile. He did his MBA at the Instituto de Empressa, a business school in Madrid, and has recently followed that up by completing an educational doctorate in the USA on transformational leadership.

Marcus and I have known each other for quite a long time. We've worked together and it's great Marcus, that you're able to join us this morning.

So Marcus, you've been looking at resiliency. You've spent a lifetime in leadership. So what's it all about? What's leadership to you?

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (01:18):

Well, first of all, hello Matthew. Thank you for having me in this conversation. It's always good seeing you and hello to any one watching this conversation. We started off with a really tough question. What is leadership? I don't think anyone knows what leadership is, to be honest. There are 16 models, theoretical models, constructs around leadership and it goes from all sorts of different points of view about what leadership is, what a good leader should have or should not have.

So to be absolutely honest, the only way I can answer that question is that what I am seeing in the world is that we are moving away from the Oh way of looking at leadership as the command and control, the hero or heroine woman or man who has got super powers like in Marvel and that they're going to lead and they're going to take you to heaven and everything is going to be rosy cozy. That I think everybody agrees in the world, it's an outdated model. And we are going in to a more collective approach to what leadership is. So we're moving away from the superhero and we're moving more to a social process where people collaborate, where we create safety for people to be who they are. So I wouldn't know what the answer to the question is. What I do see is a trend of people embracing a more collective approach to what leadership is.

Matthew Hunter (02:58):

And what do you think are some of the things driving that? What have you noticed in your conversations with CEOs, with the people you coach? What's driving that change?

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (03:08):

I think there's two factors that are driving that change. First is the complexity of the challenges that we are all facing. Not one single individual is capable of coming up with the answers to the challenges that we face. So that's the first thing.

And then the second thing that I'm seeing is this speed with which things are changing. So those two factors is actually making people finally accept that the only way that we can actually deal with the challenges that we're facing, is through collective intelligence, collaboration, et cetera. Which is a very interesting debate whether we humans, we embrace that idea. Are we raised to embrace that idea? Do we know how to have conversations? Do we know how to create the psychological safety for people to flourish? Or we are still running this fear based approach to leadership where yeah, we say the nice things about leadership but then we end up doing the same old, old, old behavior which is not in sync with what we say we need to be doing.

Matthew Hunter (04:18):

But that must be a real challenge for a lot of people because if you were charged with leading your organization, whether it be a school, a university, a business, a social organization, your main remit is to help that organization be the very best it is and maybe attract people to it. Collaborating with what might seem your competitors or with other organizations that might have different views to you, must be a very different way of working.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (04:48):

It is indeed. If we look around, we see strong signs that that collaboration is taking place. Like the air carriers around the world. 20 years ago, if you were a member of British Airways, that's the only brand you would fly. There was no sharing of any other brand in your same flights. So you would go on a British Airways flight even if the plane was empty, that's it. Its a brand.

Now it's a shared code. So when you go the front desk and you are going to get on your flight, you would see that it's British Airways and then it's someone else and someone else and someone else and someone else. So they share codes. Where that idea came from is from necessity. People said well it makes more sense if we all get tiny bits and pieces of the service or seats available in the plane. So we optimize.

I come from the car industry. I'm in the car industry where we share information very openly. In other industries, it's still unthinkable. We are against each other. We are competing. Well we were competing in the automotive industry which is known to be a highly competitive industry. And yet we would sit down and we would share information. We would even share our challenges. We would have think tanks. So it was a very, in a sense, collaborative environment, yet competitive. But we started to open up the opportunity for people to sit down and be transparent and share their worries, concerns, opportunities. They would not share their design of vehicles because obviously that is a competitive edge, but you started to see that happening.

Now, when you go to technology for instance. The way these people work, I worked in Google for three years, it's very collaborative. The complexity of the algorithms, the complexity and the speed with which they need to deliver their promise to clients. Clients changing and upgrading their demands on a continuous basis. So you know, those who are not collaborating, they will find it really difficult to adapt. So it's not because we are very bright, it's because we want to adapt and we want to survive and we want to thrive. So this is not only the natural way of doing things but it's just from necessity that we are finally embracing collaboration.

Matthew Hunter (07:25):

And I mean we've seen this recently, with this awful Covid-19. The ranges of collaboration that are going on in different industry sectors to try and meet the needs of people's health and welfare has been incredible. It'll be interesting to see if that continues. But you believe presumably from the work you've done that actually that is the way that all of this is going to have to continue to play out. The more we collaborate, the more likely we are to survive and innovate and you can do great things.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (07:57):

Is there any other option?

Matthew Hunter (07:58):

Yeah.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (07:59):

Climate change. Whatever document you end up reading, everybody points at the problems that we created, the polarities that we're dealing with. We are now starting to understand that this is one home. Our planet is our home. It doesn't belong to whatever country. It's our planet. So unless we take all care of the planet, that's it, it's game over. So scientists are saying that, sociologists are saying that, the think tanks are saying that.

We need to take care of our planet. We need to reconsider our theory around economics. So this is a great time to be in the planet because we are facing the option of making decisions that is going to affect many generations after us. So we are in a fork. Either we re-think our theories, our models, or I think we are going to be facing really tough decades coming forward. It's going to be really challenging for all of us.

Matthew Hunter (09:14):

So for leaders, I want to talk a little bit about resilience in a minute because I know that's something you've been doing quite a lot of research on. But so just looking at leaders for the moment, what do you think are one or two of the skills that may be in the past they might not have needed quite so much that really come to the forefront in the current situation that we're in. Not just with Covid-10 but with all the other challenges. Climate change, that we're all interdependent on this planet. What are just perhaps two or three of the things that they really need to master?

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (09:48):

That's a great question, Matthew. From my purview, I think a leader needs to expand its scope of definition if you like and responsibilities. From my point of view, a leader does three things, fundamentally three things.

One is delivery. We do need to deliver results. That's out of the question and we will have to continue doing that. The second thing is to develop people. Now that means creating safety, support, the right environment, the right investment. For people not to only learn what to do, but to grow as a human being. And we call it, in some places, vertical development. People not only need to learn their competencies and develop those competencies, but now they need to stretch their capacity. They need to be able to embrace more things.

And then the third thing is to finally have the courage to discover, to innovate. The world is going to spin very quickly. And we've got wicket problems that need our immediate attention. Climate change, our ability to recycle, our ability to renew, our ability to redefine society. So it's going to be a fascinating process.

The scope of a leader goes way beyond just delivery. It's developing people and discovering new options, new opportunities, and to be bold and to be compassionate and at the same time to deliver results. So I think the role and the scope of leadership is just growing.

Matthew Hunter (11:28):

Right. So in order to do all of that, coming on to the topic of resiliency, you've got to be pretty resilient. You're not only changing your own skills and having to develop new ones, but you've got all this other stuff that you can't control going on around you. Tell us a little bit about your insights in to resiliency, some of the work you've been doing recently.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (11:51):

Well that's another really fascinating, at least for me, topic. One of the things that I have observed over the last 10 years of my work around the world is that people are fatigued. Now the definition of resilience, again, it's a very complicated thing because there are more than 100 definitions of what resilience is. 100 definitions. The one that I really like, it's an intelligent management of energy.

Matthew Hunter (12:25):

Right. Okay.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (12:27):

Now very rarely we talk about energy in business. But when we look to high performance teams or people, they are masters in managing their own energy. Now we go to golf, a golfer we see that they manage their physical energy. But we're not talking about just physical, eat well, sleep, and all that stuff. It's more about the emotional management because one of the things that I discovered through research and talking with other people is that we don't see the world cognitively. We see the world through our emotions.

Matthew Hunter (13:02):

Right.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (13:03):

So today, this fear that is happening across the world is distorting the way we read reality and some people go to an attitude of resignation which is "Oh my God there's nothing that we can do, this is doomsday," et cetera, et cetera. Or we filter through our emotions the reality and then we elicit this attitude of yes, we can.

And in the world, attitude is going to be more important than aptitude, in my purview.

Matthew Hunter (13:34):

Right. Yes, we can is a great phrase. What in your opinion makes that difference? What makes someone feel, in leadership terms, feel fearful or feel concern that maybe they can't cope and others who say even with very little experience have that attitude, "Yes, we can. We can do something." What is the difference between those two people? What makes the difference?

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (14:07):

The driving principle, Matthew, is that what happens to you is not what really matters. What matters is the way you respond to those things that happen to you.

Matthew Hunter (14:20):

Right.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (14:22):

So life happens and we cannot control everything that happens in life. That is an illusion. It's never going to happen. However, we've got the power to control our responses to the things that happen. And in the future, there's two kinds of responses.

One, which I call attracting the victim look which is winching, moaning, complaining, blaming, ignoring, denying, rationalizing, resisting, hiding. And you know the game, and we have talked with many leaders that are either trapped in that mindset, they're not going to be able to respond to the challenge the situation is bringing forward.

So a resilient person is well aware that I've go the power to choose my response to the circumstances around me. And the way I respond is going to make the difference. Do I have enough energy and positive energy so that I can courageously explore the unknown, taking my head with me and explore the unknown like an astronaut? Or do I want to go bananas and crazy being to in space and Oh my God, my God, Houston, Houston, bring me back to the ship now. Well hang on. We asked you to go out and explore.

So unless we learn how to regulate ourselves, fear may be driven our decisions. And you know what happens when we are afraid. Our pre cortex shuts down and we literally turn stupid. So IQ without the right regulation of emotions is of very little value because I have seen bright people just making the most ridiculous, stupid decisions because fear was driving their behavior.

So learning how to regulate, which is just bringing yourself into balance, gives you phenomenal strength so that you can bring your head, you can bring your heart, you can bring your gut and then you are aligned and then you are centered, you're stable, you're present. And it just radiates out. When people are in that state, it just radiates. It's inspiring.

But when you see a leader losing composure, oh my God, it's doomsday, every man for himself, we don't need that. We need people who are bright. We need people who are balanced, and they need to learn how to bring that resilience. Resilience, and it's another interesting topic, resilience is not individual. Resilience starts with your regulation but it's always a relational thing. So if you are in a bad mood or if you are not regulated, irritated, impatient, grumpy, et cetera, that is going to affect people next to you who are going to pick that up.

And if they pick up your unsettling mood, they have an option. Which is do I want to respond with a more coherent wave length? Or do I want to add my own disturbance to the show and then we're going to have a very, very, very heated team where there will be no room for discussion, no room for creativity because we are all very, very in this state of fear and concern and it's never going to happen.

Matthew Hunter (18:03):

And you and I see a lot of that.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (18:06):

Oh we see a lot of that. People would tell you the right thing and they would end up doing the wrong thing. And the fact that they know that they're doing the wrong thing makes them very self judgemental and they start criticizing themselves because they end up doing the wrong thing.

Resilience gives you the energy to look into your social conditioning. Without the energy there's no way you're going to challenge yourself and there's no way you're going to let go of paradigms, theories, behaviors, habits. You know, everything that confirms your personality, which is the way you think, your emotions, your experiences, your choices, your relationships. That colors our personality but we are not our personality.

Our personalities are construct but we are not our personality. Actually personality comes from Greek. When I was small we studied Greek and Latin. And in Greek, personality comes from persona, which is a mask. So we build this mask. And the problem is not that we build the mask because it's just a way of relating with other people, it's that we end up identifying with the mask and we think we are the mask. No, we are the person behind the mask.

So if this personality doesn't work, just let it go, put another one. So one day is tragedy another one is comedy and that's the fun of it. But some people get so identified that even if you give them feedback, they take it so personal. You challenge my self image, oh my God, and then we go in to this big, big, big unsafe environment when you can't speak up and you can't do anything and then we start generating a place of unsafety.

So that is a long answer to your question. Because if we don't learn how to regulate ourselves we end up creating such a mess that change has no space, has no options to take place because we are not in a place of calm, alertness, being sharp. It's like a tennis player. It's Wimbledon, it's the last shot and Rafael Nadal is ready to serve, and the guy starts shaking. He's not going to make it. These guys, they know how to ... and there's millions of people watching and the press is going to be there and the guy, he takes a deep breath. He's under control and then he makes this phenomenal serve. And then it's in the tabloids, and this fantastic player.

Well I wonder how many people would pay money to see us work? And what would they think if they see us work. I wonder if we would make to the tabloids and what would that say? Phenomenal work of Matthew. I mean, amazing leadership skills or would they say, this Marcus is pathetic? And you know what, it's poor leadership.

So again, very long question but it all goes back to us.

Matthew Hunter (21:22):

So Marcus, just to round off our conversation, there will be many young people, younger people than us watching this hopefully who may be in really difficult situations at the moment with their businesses furloughing them or making people redundant or trying to get through the Covid pandemic and wondering how they're going to do it. So for those younger people, perhaps just starting off their leadership roles in life, a word just to end our conversation. A word of advice to them, particularly as they're the generations that, as you were talking about earlier, the world is going to depend on to demonstrate leadership in the future.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (22:03):

I would probably say shake off any belief that someone is going to take care of you.

Matthew Hunter (22:08):

Interesting.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (22:09):

The world is going to change. You've got the tools, the brightness, the mindset to empower yourself. Remember that attitude is more important than aptitude. Surround yourself with positive people. Activate the entrepreneur that is inside of you. Empower yourself and it would be fine. But if you expect someone to come to rescue you, someone who is going to take care of you, it's not going to happen.

So we're going to see that institutions, approaches, they're all going to collapse and something new is going to come forward. I would invite you to trust yourself, surround yourself with positive people, cultivate a positive attitude, use your head, use your heart and trust in you. Have faith. This is a new generation. People trust in themselves and want to be entrepreneurs. My generation was never be an entrepreneur, go to a company, secure your pay check. That's over. Those days are over.

So now it's collaboration. It's going to be networking and the new generation understands that. They've been on what's app wince they were two. They know how to do this. It's our generation that we're struggling with that. So the world is going to be full of entrepreneurs collaborating, sharing information, being generous, supporting each other. And that's I think is one of the ways that we can adapt and we actually are going to be able to survive.

Matthew Hunter (23:46):

Marcus as always it's a joy to talk to you. Thanks so much for sharing your views with us this morning. And let's hope we have lots more conversations like this. Many thanks.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (23:56):

Thanks to you, Matthew.

Matthew Hunter (23:58):

And take care in Madrid.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (24:00):

I will, indeed. You take care also in the UK.

Matthew Hunter (24:03):

Bye.

Marcos Cajina Heinzkill, Ed.D. (24:04):

Bye bye.